JON GRAY: The most expensive dinner or piece of food you're going to put in your mouth is going to come from some cats from the Bronx talking about Ghetto Gastro, you know? And you're not just paying for the food; you're paying for my brother's bail money, lawyer money, reparation. It's all types of things in that fee. So when we quote you a quarter-million dollars for a dinner for 20 people, don't flinch. Like, you know what I mean?

Welcome to THE LIMITS. I'm Jay Williams, and that was my guest today, Jon Gray, grappling with my question about what people think about the name of his business, Ghetto Gastro. They're a Bronx-based, Black-owned collective that's created unforgettable food experiences with some of the biggest names in the world. I'm talking about the big dogs. That's right. They've thrown parties with Airbnb and Cardi B. They've catered for Martha Stewart and New York Fashion Week. They dropped a sneaker collab with Nike and headphones with Beats by Dre. They've got a line of air fryers. Like, are you kidding me - Black-owned air fryers?

Honestly, I could spend this whole podcast talking about what Ghetto Gastro is all about because they wear so many different hats. But the one thing that interests me more than any one accolade is how this cat from the Bronx, Jon Gray, not only overcame the limits of his environment but brought the hood with him for the ride. You see, Jon's story is one of the wildest I've ever heard. When I listened to his TED Talk a couple of years ago, I knew it went so much deeper than the food.

GRAY: Let's take it back to 1986. I was born in the heart of the AIDS crisis, the crack epidemic and the war on drugs. The only thing that trickled down from Reaganomics was ghettonomics (ph) - pain, prison and poverty.

WILLIAMS: It's a story about family and cultural geography, about living and breathing the streets and applying those same principles in rooms with multibillion dollar stakeholders. In Jon's words, it's a story about bringing the Bronx to the world and the world to the Bronx. Here's my conversation with the great Jon Gray.

WILLIAMS: Jon, first off, how you doing, brother? It's good to finally meet you, man. I've heard so many incredible things about you. I've seen your work a ton. And I got to say it's a pleasure to meet, even via virtually.

GRAY: Yeah, yeah, man. Likewise, man. I'll tell you right now I feel really good, man, happy to be here to build with you and chop it up, man. I think it's been a long time coming. I've been a fan, like, even with my family hating 'cause my aunt was the...

GRAY: ...Provost of UNC. So...

GRAY: And I was rocking with you when you was at Duke. You know, I got, like, North Carolina roots. But, yeah, it's good to see you, man.

WILLIAMS: It's all good, man. We call it the ACC family, you know? So as long as you fit in the family, it's all love. I did want you to break something down for me because I listened to your TED Talk back in 2019. First off, it was dope. I learned so many things. But you said something that I feel like is a part of my DNA because I've learned that, through breaking bread with people, it allowed me to build more commonalities with what we had in common more so than what we had that differentiated us. And you said, quote-unquote, "breaking bread has always allowed me to break the mold and connect the people." Break that down for me a little bit.

GRAY: Yeah. I think one of the things for me is, like, breaking bread - like, you know, I feel like you could break barriers. Like, people - if you at the table and you sharing a meal with someone, I think you're able to peel back layers and have a level of intimacy that you might not be able to have in passing.

And I think it's also, like, when you're thinking about engaging and getting to know other cultures, like, how people eat could tell you a lot about their culture, right? Is it coursed out? Is it a solo plate? You know, often, if this is on a plate, it's colonial, you know? When people are having family meals and breaking bread and eating with their hands and - like, that's more like what I say, like, the mouth of the global South, you know, which is, like, our ancestry. When you look at different parts of Asia, you know, the - all the American South and North, you know, it's more familial. So I think you just learn a lot about how people eat.

And then on a more surface level, just the bridges you're able to build and connections you're able to forge at the table - I think music and food are, like, great denominators, where often, people that might not, like, rock with each other might end up in the same venue, you know?

WILLIAMS: So it's a way to bring all cultures together to find commonality, right? Essentially, regardless of whatever may differentiate yourselves around us - religions, creeds - it doesn't matter. Like, food is the one thing that brings you together.

GRAY: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And I think when you think about food and nourishment, you think of the pillars of human existence. You know, it's food, clothing, shelter. So food is first. Everybody got to eat. The food and the water is really essential. The shelter and the clothing is optional.

WILLIAMS: (Laughter) I think one of the things I learned from listening to your TED Talk, Jon, was that - you talked about durag diplomacy. You're talking about not having the feeling or need to edit yourself to make other people feel more comfortable. So I want you to bring me back to where that authenticity began. Bring me back. You're from the Bronx. How did the Bronx shape how you grew up?

GRAY: You know, like, how I grew up - it was always super interesting - right? - because most of my childhood, I grew up in some sort of hood/ghetto of sorts, whether it was Spanish Harlem or the Bronx. But my mother being who she is, she, like, put me in an alternative creative learning environment, like, at kindergarten. I went to the 92nd Street Y. So I've always kind of lived between two worlds and - two worlds where I felt like I never completely fit in one or the other. So I think my personality is amalgam of my experiences.

But, like, as I started to do things professionally, I often - like, you see people in spaces and, like, they often want you to put your culture in your pocket. And that just motivated me to really just be more brash with it and like, no, this is what it is and get down or lay down kind of vibes on it. You know what I'm saying? So the durag diplomacy is like, when we - before I had the locs, you know, I was rocking the silkies all the time, me and the homies.

GRAY: And we'd be traveling around the world, right? And, like, the customs agents or everybody there is like, what band are you with? They automatically - they thought we was either ballplayers - because I remember we was on a flight with Sardinia, with the Sardinian basketball team, after they won the championship. And everybody just thought we was ballplayers. We was signing basketballs and s*** like we won the chip. But it's like...

GRAY: It's like, when they see young brothers and sisters on the move, they usually automatically think entertainment or athletics, you know? So us being able to do something that's still in the service industry - it's still a form of entertainment, but it's outside the norm of what people think when they see brothers that - like us moving around the world.

WILLIAMS: Jon, take me through that for a second because, you know, I had something similar. I didn't grow up in the Bronx. I grew up in Jersey. But I felt like the town I was from was predominantly Black and Latino. But the school I went to was the next town over, which was predominately Caucasian. I was having a difficult time trying to find out who the hell I wanted to be and how I fit into these different lanes of life that were kind of not explored as thoroughly or not spoken about as much. How did you navigate that process?

GRAY: It's just been, I think, trial and error; just, like, walking into spaces, figuring out - like, early on, in my early days, I thought it was my network, you know? They say things like your network is your net worth. But you can't really activate a network of great people if you don't have anything to offer the world. So I think really focusing on the work is where the liberation was able to be found.

WILLIAMS: God, I love that line. Your network is your net worth. I get this feeling from you, Jon, that you really love to learn. How important was education for you growing up?

GRAY: My great-grandmother, you know, she had a degree in nutrition, right? My grandmother was a teacher. My aunt was a teacher. My mother was a teacher, a speech pathologist. I'm like, we're often - I feel like our generation sometimes might be the first high school, college graduates coming from different type of communities that are underestimated and systemically oppressed. I'm the opposite whereas I didn't graduate high school. I got a GED because I got banned from every high school in New York City. But education has always been important. I've always been an avid reader. I just love learning, you know?

I think, for me, in school, the issue fitting in was just like, I'm such a social butterfly. Like, I was really into social studies; and not just history, but learning about people, like the person next to me. So we going to get through the coursework. But it's like, what's going on in your life? Like, I'm such an experiential learner in that way. And oftentimes, you know, that was misinterpreted as misbehavior or rebellion, you know, because I always questioned authority.

WILLIAMS: During your childhood - I heard that you said when you were 15 years old, you started selling weed, right? And then you talked about graduating to cocaine when you were 18. And I'm just curious about what lessons that you learned throughout that tenure that are applicable now to what you're doing.

GRAY: So many, so many. I'll just start with a little bit of the baseline of the story because it's so crazy. Like, I just started thinking about my entrepreneurial journey in, like, a macroeconomic way. Every new business venture I started was either started, like, right before or in the middle of some type of economic downturn.

So 2001, when I was 15, September 11 just happened. A friend of mine at my high school in the Bronx got shot in the face right next to me over some shit I had done. But he lived, you know, God bless him. And then that's when I started hustling. Like, I started making those decisions. And I was, like, in that zone, you know? And it was a different time to start hustling in New York because you get on the - that's when, after 9/11, cops was able to search every bag. So it's like, certain things - the level of difficulty to do illegal things and surveillance was just difficult.

But I've always been a hustler. And I had to - like I said, I didn't grow up in the worst environment. Like, my parents, my family, like, did well. We just still lived in the hood. It's like that middle-class hood experience. But because my behavior in school was not right - you know, you want the fly shit growing up. And I had to go figure out how to get it myself. So whether that was packing bags when I was 11 and 12, like, all day just to get to it, to make a buck, because my moms and my grandmoms wasn't about that allowance life. And I wasn't really a good chore-doer. I'm still not.

And then, when I was 15, I went up to Boston in the summer. And I saw my brother was like a kingpin. I stole some weed from him, came back - because I was a square, Jay. When I was 14, I used to chastise my friends for smoking weed. I was depressed when I found out my mother tried weed as a teenager. I was like, who are you? You not who I thought you were. Like, I was like a square like that. But then when I sort of - I was like, all right, I can get to the bag here. And fast forward, I saw that I excelled. Like, I had - I was able to be a leader of men and women, build community, have financial independence.

But I graduated to the coke because I had a situation where I was like, yo, I don't really want to sell drugs in my 20s, so I'm going to get to it, like, fast. And I just started doing really, really, really well in that field. Like, I was grossing $50K a week as a teenager, as a 19-year-old. You know what I'm saying?

WILLIAMS: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, Jon. How the hell were you grossing $50K a week?

GRAY: I was moving blocks. Like, it was - like, and it was rare 'cause I often tell people, like, everybody that's in the streets is not created equal. It's like - just like in retail, you got bodega owners. You got more boutiques. You got Target. You got Walmart. You know what I'm saying? It's, like, different stages. So I wasn't Walmart, but I was in between, like, a Shop & Stop (ph) and the Target, you know? So I was wholesaling.

So - and seeing that type of paper and having that type of power and - also what that brings is a lot of heat, a lot of jealousy. So one of the main lessons, to get back to your question, that I learned from this time - the first thing was that I had supreme confidence that I can make whatever happen. So that's why - and also moving in business today, I feel like everything is low. It's like - it's low risk. Like, the type of risks I faced as a - as in my 20s and my teenage years, I'm like, everything is kind of low risk compared to that.

WILLIAMS: This is no comparison to that. Exactly.

GRAY: Yeah. I'm like, what, I'm going to lose a couple of dollars, like, have to start all over? Like, I'm built for that, like, built for that adversity. But one of the things I learned that's super valuable now is that confidence, but also the 30-second litmus tests. Like, you got to have your Spidey sense on 'cause people want to harm you. They're going to want to take from you. They might want to tell on you. So you got to be able to read them quick, you know? So I think I have a quick read, and that's fared well for me throughout all my years because I'm like, I don't care what you have, what you've done. If the human connection and the vibration isn't there, we're not going to be able to do nothing together.

WILLIAMS: That's the thing about Jon. I don't condone him being out there moving weight and risking his life, but I do appreciate that he still managed to extract valuable business lessons from all of that. But that's the type of lifestyle that can easily go wrong. After the break, Jon gets hit hard with a reality check.

This is THE LIMITs from NPR. I'm Jay Williams.

WILLIAMS: Let me tell you about the mental game of the limits. See, nothing can actually prepare you for the fall itself. When I had my accident and I couldn't play in the NBA anymore, I spiraled. To have the fortitude to pick yourself back up and create a new life for yourself - that isn't just business acumen, it's being stoic, holding your head up high. I say all of this because everything came tumbling down for Jon, and this is what he did next.

WILLIAMS: So you were facing some legit jail time. You got lucky. How did you make that pivot? What was that transition off that moment?

GRAY: I got caught in July 2006. So my aunt/godmother - huge part of my life - she was a computer programmer at Bankers Trust, then went to IBM in the '80s - like, did well financially, moved up to, like, New City. You probably know about New City off the Palisades, not far from Jersey. So I would go see her on the weekend, and she would put me on a game. She used to get me "Think And Grow Rich: A Black Choice," talked to me about stocks and bonds via Beanie Babies when it was the Beanie Baby boom. So she put me on to so much game.

But I was in the streets hustling, and she was dying of cancer, and I didn't spend the type of time that I should have spent with her. And I just had an immense sense of guilt. So I'm like, yeah, I said I wasn't going to hustle in my 20s. It was so much violence, like, going on around me - like, people getting hurt, like, death threats, like, people getting hurt bad around me. And I was like, yeah, I don't need to do this. Like, we could find something different. But I just didn't know what to do. Like, when you're doing well in this one thing, you know, and then you got to find something to start over with, it's difficult. But I went to a car show in Jersey - I think it was in Elizabeth - that Funk Flex used to do. And he...

GRAY: ...Had the car show. But this is the first year that he brought the sneakers and the streetwear to it. So I went there with my homie Jay Bad (ph), who was, like, a graffiti artist, and I was just seeing the streetwear cats. And no disrespect to anybody from the burbs that's not Black or brown, but I was seeing most of the people that was running streetwear were not from what I consider the streets. And I'm like, hold up. This is my zone. I'm creative. I got the homies, like, that'll do anything. My other man, Cray (ph), had started Smack DVD. He was nice with the graphic design. I'm like, we're going to do clothing. That's going to be the thing we do when the hustling stopped.

I wanted to stop. I wanted to finish out the summer 'cause I was greedy, and my mother - but my mother had a premonition a week before I got caught. She's like, yo, something bad's going to happen. Whatever you got left, give it to your - one of your right-hand men. And I'm like, you know what, Mom? I'm not going to do that, but I'm going to finish what I have. I literally got caught - some cat was working with the detectives - like, a cat I grew up with. I don't know if he knew they was cops or not, but he caught me on a blind sale - a small amount of stuff. I was just grabbing a little bit of lunch money on my way to drop off the load at a spot for my people to work it off down in Harlem. And I got jammed up with that, right?

And I think it was also because I was trying to be greedy. Like, even the way my exit strategy was from the game was to have one foot in, one foot out. I was, like, I was going to sell my phone and my clientele to somebody and have him give me, like, a $10K retainer. Yeah, that was, like, what I worked out in my head, you know? But I needed that...

WILLIAMS: (Laughter) Jon, I just got to say, that's wild that you developed an exit strategy out of the drug game with a retainer strategy attached to it. That's an annuity, essentially.

GRAY: Yeah, 'cause I was just thinking about overhead. I'm like, yo, we going to - I want to maintain my lifestyle. We're going to need money to invest in this new venture. But, you know, the universe works in mysterious ways, and it said, nah, that's not happening. So I got jammed up, like, a week after I incorporated my business. And then I was - like, I bailed out. My mother found a lawyer, like, in the Yellow Pages, I think it might have been back then. (Laughter) And he just happened to be a really good lawyer, got me a good bail.

I bailed out and, Jay, I haven't looked back since. Because that wakeup call - like, I had a bunch of brushes with the law, like, from since I was 14. But when you sitting in the cell, and you talking to your lawyer behind a glass, and they say, like, the sentencing for a A-II felony could be 10 to life, it's like, what? Whoa, what? Like, I can't - like, you - the first number you saying is 10? I'm like, I can't even fathom that. So I was, like - I bailed out, and I was like, yeah, I'm going to do everything in my power to at least try to manifest some positivity. Because I don't want my legacy to just be doing things that aren't really beneficial to my community.

WILLIAMS: So when did you start to develop the blueprint for what was going to be next? How did that process begin?

GRAY: So the seed started at that Funk Flex Car Show. When I bailed out, like, I just immersed myself in learning about how to start a clothing line. Like, I was literally picking up the Learning Annex newspapers that you used to see in New York. And they would have courses that you pay, like, $20, $30 for that had, like, some styling courses, some merchandising courses. They literally had a class that was, like, how to start a clothing line, right? So I took all of these classes, signed up at FIT, went down to this bookstore called Fashion Deck, spent like a G on just books to just, like - I just went in, you know? I just went in and just, like, locked in to figure it out.

And then I just started doing T-shirts, like, that - with my boys Rob (ph) and Luke (ph), and we started doing denim. They were already in FIT, so I took night classes. They were in the design courses. And I used to just - my best resource at FIT was the library. It had unlimited access to marketing and Mintel reports. And I was interested in doing something sustainable, so we were doing, like, all-organic cotton, natural indigo. And it was a little ahead of its time. Like, people weren't ready to pay the premium for that type of thing then. But just full immersion - just like I did in the streets, it was a full immersion. Like, I started, and I just go in.

WILLIAMS: How did you market that, if you don't mind me asking?

GRAY: We hit the streets. So this is pre-Instagram. So back in those days, you had to hit trade shows, you know, which were expensive. And we were blessed to be able to get the denim in, like, Bergdorf Goodman, a spot called Jeffrey’s on 14th Street. And then the T-shirts I was able to get into Union, which was a legendary streetwear store. So it was just hand-to-hand combat, like, in the streets, like, linking up with people, making good stuff, you know, and being receptive to feedback, not taking it personally, to, like, revise and edit designs based on customer or adviser feedback. But yeah, we just - it's what I still do now. I'm still in the streets with it. It's, like, hand to hand.

WILLIAMS: For Jon, learning to hustle was basically his MBA. After the break, the recession hits hard, and Jon pivots to what he knows folks will always pay for - food.

This is THE LIMITS from NPR. I'm Jay Williams. You better stay with us.

WILLIAMS: Let me ask you a serious question. Who in the hell doesn't love food? In theory, there's always a market for it. Like Jon said, we need it to live. But let me tell you, actually running a functional food business in the culinary world, let alone a successful one, is like running a marathon. I have my own restaurant, so, trust me, I know firsthand. And food means so much more than what's actually on your plate. We had Chef Marcus Samuelsson on our show earlier this year and he says this.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

MARCUS SAMUELSSON: I happen to believe that great food is a civil right, and it's not owned by a certain zip code.

WILLIAMS: A civil right, a necessity. As it turns out, Jon Gray understands that better than anyone. And here's how, against a new challenge, the 2008 economic recession, he planted a seed for his most successful enterprise yet - Ghetto Gastro.

So how did you make the transition into food? Like, when did you realize the power of food?

GRAY: Well, so I was living in El Barrio. This is, like, probably - I'll say '91, '92, like, '93, around that time when I was living in Harlem. My mother was still - she was doing - had a day job, went to school at night. And then she wouldn't be able to cook often, you know, or have the energy to cook. And she was also an epicurean 'cause she used to work at John Atkinson (ph) Hair Salon, which was, like, the high-end Black salon - it was either on Madison or 5th Avenue - when she was pregnant with me.

So when she was pregnant with me, she was eating, like, the Daniel Boulud, like, French bakery, Italian bakeries and whatnot. So my mother was, like, really a lover of food. But because she didn't have the opportunity to cook all the time, we'd go out to eat. And she wanted to experiment. She'd get - we'd hit Indian cuisine on one night. We'd hit First Wok for the Chinese spot. We'd hit the Japanese spot. Like, you know what I mean? So my palate was trained really young.

But I have a story. At First Wok, I was, like, around 6 or 7, and there was this woman. She was a regular, a older - I think she was a Jewish woman, maybe in her 80s, right? And she was there every week. We went, like, maybe on a Wednesday or Thursday, and she was always there when we were there. And I would ask her what she ordered. She always ordered the lemon chicken.

And one day I was like, yeah, you know what? You got to order the orange chicken because the lemon - I tried it. It's a little too acidic. The orange is more balanced. You get the broccoli, so you get your fiber. And it has a crispy garlic that comes with it, the fried garlic. And she ordered the orange chicken that day, and at the end of our dinner, she's like, you know what? You're a remarkable boy. You're going to be a great young man. And, like, I can see her right now. You know, I just remember that. And I think I just felt so much joy and confidence from that moment in being able to share.

But I never thought food would be a viable path to business. So even when I was hustling, I would take the little homies off the block 'cause they never left the block, right? And like I told you, I lived - I grew up in these two worlds. So I had the street side, but I also had the downtown. Whatever's going on, like, I was aware of it, you know? So I used to bring them out the hood. And I don't know if you remember the Cafeteria back in the days...

GRAY: ...Off 7th Avenue. So...

GRAY: I'd take them to the Cafeteria late night, and I had access to it. You know, it was all about being able to get in. So you have Sarah Jessica Parker at one side, Fabolous over there. And this is not, like, the best food, but it's still just, like, something different, a different experience. So I'd bring them to the Cafeteria, hold court.

So food was also always how I shared my love and wanted to show an experience. Like, I wouldn't go trick off on the most expensive clothing or, like, go crazy with the jewelry. But I will never hesitate to spend over a grand on a dinner for me and my friends - you know what I mean? - even as a young man.

WILLIAMS: So it sounds to me like you've had this love affair with food your whole life. But your first venture after you got out of the drug game was in fashion. Can you please take me through that?

GRAY: The recession hit in 2008. A lot of retailers closed. Like, small boutiques closed. The bigger ones weren't taking chances with small startup brands that didn't have an established fan base or sales records. And then I would just - I just hit a wall. So I'm like, damn. I was grinding it out, trying to get it done, trying to get it done, running out of my money. So I also had a crisis 'cause I'm like, part of my whole identity is having money. Like, I've been having money since I was 15. So now I'm running out of bread, and I'm like, I don't know who I am. Like, am I - like, what's going on? Like, I'm used to things working.

So I had to just take a step back, and I'm like, yo, you know what? I got into this fashion business also to make money. I saw, like, people like these cats I was talking about that I didn't think that was from the streets. I saw that their company was valued at, like, 80 to - they were doing 80 to 100 million in sales. I'm like, I need parts of that. I know my hustle is real. I'm going to get it done.

But when I stepped back and started thinking about the life I want to live and what brings me joy, I'm like, food is the thing, but I don't know. Like, a restaurant I've always been scared to do because you hear about the high startup costs, especially in a city like New York - low margins and also the high failure rate, right? So I'm like, I want to do food. And someone gave me an opportunity to invest in a restaurant.

And my homie Les had won "Chopped." And this is a cat I grew up with, another street cat. He's like, yeah, I want to do a food truck. I'm like, all right. I'm bringing him all my lessons so he could just start - and giving him the game that I'm getting so he could just start working on it. And I'm like, yo. We was like, yo. One day we're going to do some food stuff 'cause I was really closer with his younger brother, but me and him connected to the food thing. You know what I'm saying? And I'm like, yo, when are we going to do something? And this is '07, right?

And then fast-forward to 2011, 2012. We reconnect, and, you know, he does "Chopped" and, like, builds up market standing. So he wins that. I'm like, yo. It's a void in culture in how food is represented. And, like, we got the streets. We got the pop culture, the youth. But we also got the art, the design. And then, of course, like, pushing Blackness, like, we got to be super-Black, like, super-Black, unapologetic, you know, in our way 'cause Blackness is not a monolithic thing. But we're going to, like, really, really push Blackness to the front of what we're doing.

And, granted, in 2012, everybody wasn't on the, we want to support Black businesses. Like, you looking at these brands. They see a name like Ghetto Gastro, which is extremely polarizing, they're like, hold up. Wait. What? So that's how we got to the food - just, like, thinking about what I would do if it wasn't about money. And I was like, I like to travel. I like to eat. So how do I reverse engineer having means from that?

WILLIAMS: We had Marcus Samuelsson on my pod. And he was talking about, obviously, growing up, you know, in a different part of the world and - but experiencing his culture 'cause I asked him straight-up, Jon. I was like, you know, what is Blackness? And he's like, Blackness is a variety of different things.

And, you know, people - you said the word ghetto makes people feel very uncomfortable. But for you, that word means home. And you're owning that. And you're building off that. You're reflecting off that. Do you get the same kind of reaction from when you first started to where you are now about the name in corporate America? Does it still jolt people, or do they feel a little bit more ease, a little bit more comfortable with your Blackness?

GRAY: It's a pre- and post-George Floyd, Breonna Taylor when it comes to allyship and people, like, showing their views with their dollars - right? - and what's acceptable in corporate environments. But I will say that first of all, I think the word ghetto - and it's really for us. Like, I'm not doing this for the white gaze, right? I'm talking to you. I'm talking to people from the community that - like, so long we've been taught to undervalue our contributions and our experiences, right?

Like, I'll give you an example. When I was selling jeans, I used to pay $150 to make a pair of jeans. Citizens of Humanity was poppin'. Seven jeans was poppin', right? People would definitely go gladly spend 300, 400 on those pairs of jeans. But I'm like, yo, I got a $500 pair of jeans that's in Bergdorf and Jeffrey right now here in the trunk. I don't need to make money on it. I just want you to support it and rock it 'cause we're from the same place. But it's like, that people - it's oftentimes we underestimate our contribution. And people are looking for some type of white, European validation when it comes to things that are, quote-unquote, "luxury."

And I'm like, naw. The most expensive dinner or piece of food you're going to put in your mouth is going to come from some cats from the Bronx talking about Ghetto Gastro, you know? And you're not just paying for food; you're paying for my brother's bail money, lawyer money, reparations. It's all types of things in that feast. So when we quote you a quarter-million dollars for a dinner for 20 people, don't flinch. Like, you know what I mean? So...

WILLIAMS: I'm curious when I say some of the names of your clients - Cartier, Microsoft, the Metropolitan Museum of Art commissioning your work. I mean, what do you think draws them to you, Jon?

GRAY: I think what we're doing is so singular. And I don't always want it to be singular, but I think people that are curious - also, we've got to be frank - that have the wallet to be able to afford us - right? - these people run in tight circles. So I think because the name has been whispering around and because we don't take no shit. We like, naw, this is what it is. Like, all money ain't good money. So you can't wave a checkbook and we get it done. But it's also like, we either charging you top dollar, or we doing it for free, like, for our people, you know? So it's no really in between.

WILLIAMS: I can't express enough how much I appreciate you giving us the time today. I know one of the things I love about doing this, Jon, is that I'm able to take so many notes during these interviews that I'm able to create a cheat code for myself, essentially. I guess the one thing I will ask you before we exit is, what is your cheat code for making an unforgettable meal? Can you please help a brother out? Marcus helped me out a little bit. But I need to hear from you personally what your cheat code is for making an unforgettable meal.

GRAY: So I'm going to give you some game because, like, I equate - 'cause I'm the dishwasher in the crew. Yo, you got to just have amazing condiments and great ingredients, bro. Like, so if you could get something fresh from the farmers market, if you go see your butcher, see your fishmonger - let the ingredients speak. But have some good seasonings. I'll give you some notes - like, good chili sauce, you know? Have great salts, great peppers. Like, I'm going to condiment king. And have you a Black-owned air fryer so you can set it and forget it. You know what I mean? Get that Ghetto Gastro CRUXGG at a Target near you. Make it do what it do.

WILLIAMS: See, Jon, that's why I rock with you. Not only did you give us an unforgettable meal, but you also gave us a plug about your air fryer. See, that's - the brain is always spinning. It's always working, as well as it should be.

I appreciate you taking the time, man. And much love and success, and we are going to connect for sure. We need to break bread so we can share this - more commonality.

GRAY: Yeah, we got to break bread.

WILLIAMS: Done. That's going to happen.

GRAY: I appreciate you, brother. This means a lot, man.

WILLIAMS: A big shoutout to my man, Jon Gray, Ghetto Gastro and the whole team for making this happen. His book, "Ghetto Gastro Presents Black Power Kitchen" is available for pre-order this week. And we are back on Thursday with another episode for THE LIMITS+ subscribers about Jon's spiritual connection to the late Virgil Abloh - rest in peace. Until then, remember, let's keep it positive, and let's keep it moving.

THE LIMITS is produced by Karen Kinney, Mano Sundaresan, Leena Sanzgiri, Barton Girdwood, Yolanda Sangweni. Our executive producer is Anya Grundmann. Music by Ramtin Arablouei. Special thanks to Danielle Soto, Christina Hardy, Rhudy Correa and Charla Riggi.

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